Curse

Konig Des Todes · Aug 23, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

This is just a thought I had a while back that has constantly been a tad bit bugging me, so I finally decided to research it. (And if this has been brought up before, sorry, used search and didn't find a thread to rez

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Lord Odran

First, I little review on who Lord Odran was for those who don't know:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars Manuscripts

Using a spell of his own devising and the sacrifice of many souls, Lord Odran, a powerful arcanist who specialized in the study of temporal distortions, opened a portal that offered him access to the Mists and eventually into the Rift itself. The spirits who had given their lives to earn access to the hallowed afterlife were outraged. They turned their fury upon the intruder, attacking Lord Odran with all of their legendary, collective might. But it had been hundreds of years since most of the spirits had interacted with the physical world, and none of them had ever done so in their shadow form. As powerful as they had been in life, they could not harm the physical manifestation of the wizard lord—not yet. He was untouchable here in the land of the dead, and he traveled freely through the Hall of Heroes.

Over the years, Lord Odran learned to use the Rift to travel across the multiverse. He opened portals on nearly all of the different worlds, turning the Rift into his own personal gateway. But though he was clever, the wizard lord was himself only mortal, and eventually the spirits of the Hall discovered a way to interact with the corporeal world. Odran’s last physical journey through the Rift cost him his mortal life. The wizard lord was torn to shreds by hundreds of angry souls seeking retribution for his trespasses.

When Odran’s mortal body died, the wards and enchantments that kept his portals hidden failed, and the gates to the Hall of Heroes were laid open to all who were able to find them. The wizard lord had been canny though; Odran knew that one day he too might be ensconced in the Hall of Heroes, so he hid the portals in the most treacherous locations he could find. The fear of death, he surmised, would keep the meek at bay.

But a long time has passed, and it is clear now that the wizard lord, like the gods before him, underestimated the greed of men. Over time, the whereabouts of the portals have been revealed. Though they remain difficult to get to, there are those with enough skill and enough bravery to reach them, and every day the numbers of intruders to the Hall of Heroes rises.

An unending battle for supremacy rages inside the Hall. The spirit inhabitants have taken to playing groups of mortals against each other for sport, placing bets on which will make it farthest and giving special aid to those they favor. Control of the Hall itself has its rewards—and its costs as well.

More information at here (although most, if not all, is just rewording of what I quoted).

Odran and Abaddon

Now, as far as I can find, there is no direct relation between Odran and Abaddon, and very little to even support such a thing, so I won't even bring that up until the very end. However, after looking at the timeline and the Ecology of the Charr, I have noticed something interesting. Shiro's corruption and the first Titan to show up to the Charr happened about 200 years ago, Odran's portals were opened about 220 years ago.

For those who don't want to read the whole Ecology of the Charr to find the spot about the Titan:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecology of the Charr

So, in order to fight the human threat, the Charr sought a god of their own. Two hundred years before the Searing, the Burnt warband, a group dedicated to the Flame Legion, ventured to the lands surrounding the Hrangmer volcano (translated to human, the name means “Jaws of Oblivion”). Upon its return, the warband claimed to have found gods for the Charr at long last.

Eager for a new purpose and filled with pride, members of the Flame Legion swore allegiance to these new gods, converting or destroying anyone who stood in their path. One by one, the legions of the Charr fell beneath the control of these “gods” and their Shamans, and the Charr at last earned new magic, a new means of destroying their human enemies south of the Wall.

What seems to be nearly positive, although it is possible to not be the case, is that Abaddon used Odran's rifts to send the Titan and the Fortune Teller, possibly Razakel as well, to Tyria. (Side Note: This could mean there is a rift by Odran at the Hrangmer Volcano, seeing how it is probably a "dangerous place").

Now I have three theories - or hypotheses, whichever you wish to call it. Starting from least likely to most likely:

1. Odran was a follower of Abaddon and was ordered to create the portals *and his own lust for knowledge led him to seek Abaddon, the God of Secrets, out and explore other realms/worlds*.

2. Odran was influenced by Abaddon and created the portals unknowingly for Abaddon to use, thinking that he found the way to make the portals when Abaddon gave him the way to make them.

3. Odran had absolutely nothing to do with Abaddon and after Odran's death Abaddon used the portals for his own use.

Now, if the three followers of Abaddon *the Fortune Teller, Terick/Razakel, and the Titan *probably Saevio Proelium, who was captured by the Order of Whispers 100 years ago*, I would assume they came from the rifts in these locations:
Razakel: Tombs of the Primeval Kings *based on the fact that this place is closest to Orr, that we know of*
Titan: Hrangmer Volcano
Fortune Teller: Some place in Cantha *possibly near the Jade Sea*

Now, sadly, I realize there is little proof to suggest that Abaddon even used Odran's portals, but I thought the timing of the events are too close to be a coincidence, and I thought it was worth bringing up.

Your thoughts on this is appreciated.

Free Runner · Aug 23, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

I always have wondered how Abaddon managed to create portals in Tyria while imprisoned. Suprisingly i dont see you mention his use of the Tomb of Primeval Kings - not for Razakel but for his forces. Surely this would help your theory alittle? Abaddon used Odrans portal in the Tomb of Primeval Kings against us.

For those who were not around at the time of the invasion of Tombs: the Tombs slowly began to change. The Zaishen showed up and told people to be wary as they had seen signs of darkness. The tombs gained a purple aura and the walls began to crack. Eventually it became what it is now. Now this seemed to take awhile before anything happend - possibly due to the amount of demons he sent through it. For a single demon you wouldnt need such a dramatic attack.

But this would at least show that Abaddon had knowledge of Odrans portals to an extent. Though i dont think Odran was a follower of Abaddon - he probably just didnt expect Abaddons attempt at freedom.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 23, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

The reason why I did not use the current Tombs of the Primeval Kings was because that is recent and what I'm talking about is stuff that happened 200 years ago. Although it does prove the fact that Abaddon *and Menzies/Dhuum* can use Odran's portals. And yes, with just one *or three* demons going through a single portal, especially when it might not have been known to others, would not have such an affect.

Keep in mind, the portal was made before Turai Ossa went there, and Shiro became corrupted and the Titans showed up before the pilgrimage, so it's unlikely that it was even known to be a portal there until Turai Ossa traveled there.

Free Runner · Aug 23, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

I'm wondering what conditions Abaddon needs to create a portal. My guess was that the closer to Nightfall the more easier it is to make a portal - in the two invasions he once used Odrans portal to attack. But the other time, at the Dragon Festival, he was able to make them appear without use of any of Odrans portals.

The Invasion of Tombs happened a couple of years before Nightfall and i would guess the Dragon Festival Invasion was inbetween that. As far as i know Varesh hadnt done anything in those few years between Tombs Events and Nightfall- no weakening of the walls between the worlds. Hes able to create portals for the Margonites and Torment Demons to go through in Cantha and Tyria (Zenmai and Olias quests) which is closer but still long before Varesh begins moving.

But considering he first used Odrans portal to attack rather than create portals in Tyria this would suggest he couldnt make portals at the time. Which would mean (unless some event happened causing him to became unable to send his forces into Tyria) he would have to have used Odrans portals 200 years previously.

Of course thats just a theory - it may of been that he used Odrans portal to cause destruction in the Hall of Heroes rather than directly attack Tyria.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 23, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Interesting subject.

I don't believe Odran to have been a follower of Abaddon. It seems to me that he was a sort of rebellious mage who didn't listen to anybody. He certainly didn't care much when he entered the realms of the gods. Without having done great deeds or attracting the attention of the gods, he entered their realms like an unwanted guest. He's not the type to follow a god.

I do however like your idea of Abaddon using his portals afterwards. It makes sense in a way, but even if Odran had never created portals, Abaddon would have found a way. Like you said, during the Dragon Festival, he created portals with ease. And after all, if a mortal can find a way to create portals, why can't a god?

Konig Des Todes · Aug 23, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

I think that the main need for Abaddon to create portals is a "disturbance" in the world. If you think about it, prior to Shiro, there was nothing going on other then Joko and Odran until you go far back enough for Abaddon's imprisonment. I think the damage that Shiro, the Charr, and Khilbron did was enough to allow Abaddon, Dhuum, and Menzies to open portals at will. With just Shiro's act, not enough was done, so he had to wait for Khilbron to do his part, and Terick had to wait for the Charr to attack before he can get Khilbron to use the scroll.

One event happening was not enough, so he had to wait for all to happen. That's my theory on why Abaddon did not attack until now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

It may of been that he used Odrans portal to cause destruction in the Hall of Heroes rather than directly attack Tyria.

In relation to the Tombs attack, I think it was more of an attack on the Hall of Heroes then Tyria, or else the strongest wouldn't be in the very far back, and the siege wurms, which are stationary, would be closer to Tyria then they currently are. Of course, the best argument for their current positioning could be the whole game mechanics.

But aside from that, there is the fact that nearly everything else was attacked or will be, all the attacks that occurred at the time and before are:

Tyria
1. The Searing
2. The Cataclysm
3. The Undead Assault
4. The Titan Assault

Cantha
1. Jade Wind
2. The Plague *soon to be*
3. Urgoz and the Warden's assault*indirectly from Abaddon*
4. Kanaxai and the Nightmare Demons' assault *most likely indirectly from Abaddon*

Rift/Mists
1. The Underworld
2. Fissure of Woe

So I see no reason to attack Tyria again, but instead hurt the heroes while they are fighting each other *which would mean killing off Tyria's strongest fighters*, along with attacking the spirits *possibly capturing them as well in order to feed the army, as they eat souls it seems*, and to give an "I'm coming for you" taunt to all 5 gods at once from Abaddon himself *instead of from Dhuum to Grenth and Menzies to Balthazar*.

The only attack that doesn't make sense to me lore-wise is the Dragon Festival. I see no reason to attack Shing Jea Island.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

And after all, if a mortal can find a way to create portals, why can't a god?

There are things that even gods may not know, even the God of Secrets. But, I'll stick with that he didn't have enough power at the time.

Free Runner · Aug 24, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

I do however like your idea of Abaddon using his portals afterwards. It makes sense in a way, but even if Odran had never created portals, Abaddon would have found a way. Like you said, during the Dragon Festival, he created portals with ease. And after all, if a mortal can find a way to create portals, why can't a god?

I wasnt actually saying Abaddon couldnt create portals due to lack of knowledge. I was actually reffering to his imprisonment - i would think the gods set some boundrys up to make sure he couldnt start making portals out of the blue. Yet he later begins to make them more frequently than he originally did - when Varesh is moving through Elona, doing the rituals, portals are cropping up all over.

Though i do like your disturbance idea Azazel - remember after Vizunah Square? the Envoys state that every spirit Shiro lets loose in the mortal world effects the equilibrium between the worlds making it tip out of balance. Perhaps when HUGE disasters such as the Jade Wind happen the amount of dead causes this balance to tip again. While the equilibrium is out of balance Abaddons prison borders may shift allowing him to create portals for a certain amount of time.

Of course in Nightfall the portals would be more frequent due to his prison walls getting weaker. And prior to this, Shiros little campaign caused it to tip again allowing him to use his minions at the Dragon Festival.

Gmr Leon · Aug 24, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

The souls probably helped fuel the Margonites which helped them to reclaim the Shadow Nexus. There was probably a bit of back-and-forth in terms of ownership during which times that Abaddon held it he used it to crack open his own portals.

It was probably during the Dragon Festival that he struck at the Forgotten with the help of the Fury and took control of the Shadow Nexus long enough to siege Shing Jea Island.

At the time of Nightfall, he's clearly already gotten enough forces and pushed outward enough to have complete control over the Shadow Nexus to utilize it to open up portals all over the place.

200 years ago though, he wouldn't have had much in the way of forces and so obviously he would have to use some of Odran's portals. The thing is..Odran opened up a ton of portals all over the place. It probably took him a long time to find them out in the Mists, which really just goes to show how extensive the Mists really are.

pamelf · Aug 24, 2008, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Clear this up for me, I'm a little confused....weren't the charr gods destroyers and not titans?

Konig Des Todes · Aug 24, 2008, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

Clear this up for me, I'm a little confused....weren't the charr gods destroyers and not titans?

The original Charr Gods were Titans, but we destroy them and prove that they were false in Prophecies. The Shaman caste, out of desperation for control, made the Destroyers their new gods.

Abedeus · Aug 24, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

Clear this up for me, I'm a little confused....weren't the charr gods destroyers and not titans?

Didn't you see the effigies in Pre-Searing? First, the Titans were charr's Gods. Then, when they were killed, Charrs had to find new Gods and Destroyers appeared. So they were their new Gods.

pamelf · Aug 24, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Didn't you see the effigies in Pre-Searing? First, the Titans were charr's Gods. Then, when they were killed, Charrs had to find new Gods and Destroyers appeared. So they were their new Gods.

Ahh thanks. I'm only just getting into this lore thing, and it's very interesting but I'm learning as I go.

mazey vorstagg · Aug 24, 2008, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

I don't believe Odran to have been a follower of Abaddon. It seems to me that he was a sort of rebellious mage who didn't listen to anybody. He certainly didn't care much when he entered the realms of the gods. Without having done great deeds or attracting the attention of the gods, he entered their realms like an unwanted guest. He's not the type to follow a god.

Actually this makes a ton of sense. I agree with you, he seems too full of himself to worship or bow down to anyone. Once he was gone it seems likely that Abbadon utilised his portals to send his emissaries through, but he couldn't send huge waves of soldiers through because his power was still quite weak.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 24, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Though i do like your disturbance idea Azazel - remember after Vizunah Square? the Envoys state that every spirit Shiro lets loose in the mortal world effects the equilibrium between the worlds making it tip out of balance. Perhaps when HUGE disasters such as the Jade Wind happen the amount of dead causes this balance to tip again. While the equilibrium is out of balance Abaddons prison borders may shift allowing him to create portals for a certain amount of time.

That makes sense. But there's something that Heleyne says that bothers me.

Emissary Heleyne: His duty is to shepherd the newly dead to the gates of the Mists.
He's shirking his responsibility as an Envoy.

Courier Torivos: For every disembodied spirit that he lets loose here in the mortal realm, the delicate equilibrium between worlds tips further out of balance.

What you say is that when catastrophic events take place and a lot of people die at the same time, the equilibrium tips out of balance. This could be, but it isn't quite what the envoys are saying. Shiro is an envoy at the time and Heleyne says that it's his responsibility as an envoy to guide the spirits to the mists. Now, if Shiro would do that, then there would be no problem; the balance would not be disturbed. However, he fails to do his job. He refuses to lead the spirits of the dead to the gates of mists, and this is the reason why the balance is disturbed. He kills mortals, but then lets their spirits wander around in the mortal realm. This is what Torivos is saying. In the cinematic, Shiro kills the entire party, without guiding their souls to the mists. Shortly afterwards, the envoys do their explanation.

So, it's not the amount of dead that causes the imbalance like you say. It is however what happens with the spirits that is the cause. While they should normally be guided to the afterlife by the envoys, Shiro refuses to do so and that is how he creates the imbalance.

Free Runner · Aug 24, 2008, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

So, it's not the amount of dead that causes the imbalance like you say. It is however what happens with the spirits that is the cause. While they should normally be guided to the afterlife by the envoys, Shiro refuses to do so and that is how he creates the imbalance.

Ah but we dont exactly know that? think about it - it needs balance. If at one point a huge amount of people die this balance could be affected. I know they are talking about too many Spirits roaming Tyria - but i was talking about the opposite with too many spirits leaving Tyria. That is what i was saying. Of course its just a theory.

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 24, 2008, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

If at one point a huge amount of people die this balance could be affected. I know they are talking about too many Spirits roaming Tyria - but i was talking about the opposite with too many spirits leaving Tyria. That is what i was saying. Of course its just a theory.

It is a very logic theory, it seems likely to me. However, I don't think the Vizunah Square mission and any of its dialogs are any proof for that theory. But like you said, you were talking about the opposite.

draxynnic · Aug 24, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

It's a correlation I've noticed myself...

My personal theory is that Odran, in his exploration of the Mists, breached the Realm of Torment just before he died - and that it was the reason he died (either because he got killed in the Realm of Torment and the explanation we have for his death is just historians guessing, or that the real reason the spirits in the Hall of Heroes tore him apart was for the crime of breaching Torment). Before the breach could be sealed (if it was at all), Terick, the Fortune Teller, and the Titan got out... and possibly others. After that, the three got to work towards bringing the walls of the prison down from without while Abaddon continued working on them from within, until it all climaxed with the three chapters.

Regarding Shiro - I don't think the problem was that he was shirking his duties, it was in what he was doing with the spirits INSTEAD of shepherding. First there was the souls being caught up in the Affliction, while others later received Shiro's personal attention by being bound into Shiroken (there's a scene where Shiro informs a couple of dead souls that they're going to work for him now. Can't remember which mission it's from now, though).

Gmr Leon · Aug 24, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

It's at the end of the Nahpui Quarter mission.

As to your idea about Odran..Honestly, that just seems to be grasping at straws for discussion. Until they decide to work with ambiguous bits of the story like they did in Nightfall, I think we should accept that the spirits in the Hall of Heroes tore him to shreds. Why? Well, come on now, what more of a reason do you need than some upstart mortal who has done nothing of any heroic nature to be known across the Mists coming into a place you worked to get into?

Imagine the outrage of slaves finishing a pyramid and then seeing the Pharaoh just poof one out of thin air, for example.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 24, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

So, it's not the amount of dead that causes the imbalance like you say. It is however what happens with the spirits that is the cause. While they should normally be guided to the afterlife by the envoys, Shiro refuses to do so and that is how he creates the imbalance.

There are only what, 7, 8, Envoys? That's a small amount, when large things like the Cataclysm, Searing, Jade Wind, etc. happens too many people die and it takes a while to guide ALL of their spirits. When it is just one, it's fine, the balance is slightly disturbed but overall nothing is affected, that's why nothing happened after the Jade Wind. However, when multiple disasters take place, like the Cataclysm did right after the Searing, and then shortly after the Plague happened (where one envoy went "bye bye duty") then it becomes a problem. I don't think the balance would have been threatened if only shiro's plague happened, unless it went unchecked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Ah but we dont exactly know that? think about it - it needs balance. If at one point a huge amount of people die this balance could be affected. I know they are talking about too many Spirits roaming Tyria - but i was talking about the opposite with too many spirits leaving Tyria. That is what i was saying. Of course its just a theory.

Or, it could be that the balance is threatened by too many spirits leaving the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

(either because he got killed in the Realm of Torment and the explanation we have for his death is just historians guessing, or that the real reason the spirits in the Hall of Heroes tore him apart was for the crime of breaching Torment).

If he did enter the Realm of Torment (which is possible) then it might be because he entered the Realm of Torment that the spirits were finally able to touch him. Of course, that idea is just as far-fetched as yours

Free Runner · Aug 24, 2008, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Or, it could be that the balance is threatened by too many spirits leaving the world.

Er...isnt that just a simplified version of what i said? spirits leaving Tyria = spirits leaving the world?

Quote:

There are only what, 7, 8, Envoys?

We meet 5 (thats including Shiro) but its never said that they are the only ones. Its more like they are the ones directly involved with Shiros campaign.

Quote:

If he did enter the Realm of Torment (which is possible) then it might be because he entered the Realm of Torment that the spirits were finally able to touch him. Of course, that idea is just as far-fetched as yours

I think the spirits just managed to find a way around it. Spirits can harm mortals that have never been in the Realm of Torment in the present day.